tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post7834774691472679903..comments2023-05-25T07:17:05.918-04:00Comments on Abide in My Word: As the Great Sanctification Debate of 2013 Winds Down . . .Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-26849016865471850592013-04-26T07:41:23.121-04:002013-04-26T07:41:23.121-04:00Pastor Brown,
I am puzzled by your last comment.
...Pastor Brown,<br /><br />I am puzzled by your last comment.<br /><br />First of all, I must say, if the world would look at something like this and say "that is a vicious argument", I would simply challenge them to explain why they think that - or if they really think this argument has not in fact been tempered and rather mild as far as the world goes.<br /><br />Second, there is no doubt that we all have an ego that likes attention and wants to be stroked. If that is something we don't recognize - and constantly try to fight against in the power of Christ - then that is something we need to repent about. I am convinced however, that there are many theologians out there who really have had a large measure of success in holding their pride in check. Humble men who know far more than I ever could.<br /><br />I mean, I don't think you would ever think of saying that we should not discuss/debate issues like this because there will be sin involved! In that case, we might not as well not try and consciously do any good work! I see the work that Pastors Weedon, McCain, Cooper, Surburg, Curtis, Strawn, and Sonntag doing as an immensely good work. That is, upholding and defending that which has been passed on to us. <br /><br />I especially thank Pastor Sonntag for giving Martin Luther a voice once again. Have you looked at his article yet?<br /><br />Love in Christ,<br />Nathan Nathan Rinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13994922104672096902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-32407232170590223802013-04-26T02:22:32.321-04:002013-04-26T02:22:32.321-04:00From a layman's standpoint this clears the deb...From a layman's standpoint this clears the debate up in my mind: John 6:28,29 "Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"<br />29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00109555151573481592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-50715034618015342172013-04-25T20:22:39.354-04:002013-04-25T20:22:39.354-04:00I don't see this as the "great sanctifica...I don't see this as the "great sanctification debate of 2013", it's an essential reality that the Lutheranism of our Confessions and our Fathers is being compromised by theology of Forde and Paulson. That's not something to be debated and then forgotten until next year.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07355003765385878787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-7690562297316638972013-04-25T16:58:20.860-04:002013-04-25T16:58:20.860-04:00Will we have progressed to better arguments by nex...Will we have progressed to better arguments by next year, or will it still be the same, dead, Christless clash of ego?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-73311794048538352092013-04-25T13:08:59.382-04:002013-04-25T13:08:59.382-04:00Pastor Messer,
Well, I'm done for today at le...Pastor Messer,<br /><br />Well, I'm done for today at least... : ) <br /><br />In the ever-patient strong love of Christ,<br /><br />Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-80412714528854995072013-04-25T12:59:24.290-04:002013-04-25T12:59:24.290-04:00Wait, I thought we were wrapping this thing up. No...Wait, I thought we were wrapping this thing up. No? <br /><br />I'm thinking we should stop now and reserve a little energy for the Great Sanctification Debate of 2014. <br /><br />:)Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-84046653327021126252013-04-25T12:58:20.441-04:002013-04-25T12:58:20.441-04:00"And here is a post that I think nails the wh..."And here is a post that I think nails the whole discussion.<br /><br />http://steadfastlutherans.com/?p=29240"<br /><br />Saw it and commented on it. Please take a look at Pastor Sonntag's article....<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-30377412434833069162013-04-25T12:57:10.863-04:002013-04-25T12:57:10.863-04:00It means that you, as a redeemed person, exist.
...It means that you, as a redeemed person, exist. <br /><br />Pastor Brown,<br /> <br />Your salvation is in Christ. If you want salvation, you have it!<br /><br />more: http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/if-you-want-salvation-you-already-have-salvation/<br /><br />Go and sin no more, right?<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-76636186307063808772013-04-25T12:55:21.417-04:002013-04-25T12:55:21.417-04:00And here is a post that I think nails the whole di...And here is a post that I think nails the whole discussion.<br /><br />http://steadfastlutherans.com/?p=29240Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-22098011808460424562013-04-25T12:52:37.911-04:002013-04-25T12:52:37.911-04:00The old adam is daily drowned - the new man daily ...The old adam is daily drowned - the new man daily emerges. If "I" myself am the new man... what does that mean? <br /><br />Now, if Christ is the New Man, than daily through forgiveness and mercy He does arise in me - and I then show forth love as I live in Him.<br /><br />To God Alone be the Glory! =o)Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-73571128889002881082013-04-25T12:52:01.693-04:002013-04-25T12:52:01.693-04:00That sounds pretty good to me! Amen to that.
Al...That sounds pretty good to me! Amen to that. <br /><br />Always eager to avoid onionism (opposite of unionism),<br /><br />Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-47158230727344633512013-04-25T12:50:16.889-04:002013-04-25T12:50:16.889-04:00Second,
I have not written any posts directly aga...Second,<br /><br />I have not written any posts directly against anyone -- I have lamented the focus on me and my growth... precisely because I view it as focused upon... me. Upon "I". As all wrapped up in Ego.<br /><br />The saints do not point to themselves, but they diminish themselves. Who is Paul, who is Apollos? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.<br /><br />The following post explains this idea.<br /><br />http://confessionalgadfly.blogspot.com/2013/04/co-operation-wheres-wonder-in-that.htmlRev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-87084217969547031922013-04-25T12:46:56.551-04:002013-04-25T12:46:56.551-04:00First,
""But how can good works be done...First,<br /><br />""But how can good works be done for by us, when the devil stalks us with his snares, the world is full of offenses, and sin itself dwells in our flesh?<br />First of all it is necessary that the person be reconciled to God through faith for the sake of Christ. For thus the Holy Spirit is given in reconciliation itself (Gl 3:2, 14; Tts 3::5-6); He purifies and renews hearts (Acts 15:8-9; Ps 51:10; Eph 4:23; Eze 36:26); He will kindle new affections in [your] heart, that it submit itself to the Law and divine obedience (Ro 6:17; 7:22). For a tree must first be good, before good fruits come forth from it (Mt 7:18; 12:33). But after the Holy Spirit has already begun in us that work of renewal, we also can and should add our effort, by following the leadership of the Holy Spirit and mortifying the works of the flesh through the Spirit (Rom 8:13; 12:2; 2 Ptr 1:5; 2 Ti 1:6). For through these exercises God wants to preserve and increase in us His gifts by the grace, power, and help of the Holy Spirit (1 Co 15:10; Mt 25:21, 29). And what is more, for this the Holy Spirit uses as ordinary means the preaching, hearing and meditation of the divine Word (Ps 119)" <br /><br />I think that is a fine statement. It also doesn't use the phrase "new man."Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-55863087641904588712013-04-25T12:40:25.537-04:002013-04-25T12:40:25.537-04:00Eric,
What do you think the disagreement is betwe...Eric,<br /><br />What do you think the disagreement is between us? Obviously you think there is one since you wrote posts against what Pastor Surburg and I wrote. <br /><br />And calling Jesus the new man is completely wrong and is an absolute denial of the Chemnitz statement that you affirmed. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07355003765385878787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-22416149083802335092013-04-25T11:51:25.582-04:002013-04-25T11:51:25.582-04:00All,
My "final" word - with sincere pr...All, <br /><br />My "final" word - with sincere prayers that it may be the final word of us all, brothers in arms.<br /><br />Glory be to Christ!:<br /><br />http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/silent-no-more-luther-lays-down-the-law-on-how-to-preach-the-law-200-proof-version/<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-85937482509906230362013-04-25T11:32:02.878-04:002013-04-25T11:32:02.878-04:00Here's how I summed it up elsewhere:
Am I gr...Here's how I summed it up elsewhere: <br /><br />Am I growing as much as I should be? I don’t think I am and do honestly think I’ll feel that way my whole life. There is more I could be doing for sure. Not to be saved, but because I have been saved. I want to re-start this process of pursuing holiness every day, for I am baptized! Even as I long to be found outside of myself – in other words where I loose the “me” and am “lost” in the joy of simply being where He is (where I am there my servant will also be) – finding Christ in everyone I meet even as I, being in Christ, am a “little Christ” to all.<br /><br />Still, there is a me. There is an I. The “new man” is not just Jesus or Jesus in me. And that is glorious for He knows all the hairs on my head and treasures even me. I participate with Him in synergy.<br /><br />And so do we all.<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-63466988020208812172013-04-25T11:29:30.507-04:002013-04-25T11:29:30.507-04:00I guess what I'm wondering is, "do you th...I guess what I'm wondering is, "do you think the new man exists"? I mean, let us each point to Christ by all means - but who are those people pointing to Christ?<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-14204841827725524922013-04-25T11:27:48.926-04:002013-04-25T11:27:48.926-04:00Pastor Brown,
I find your approach puzzling. I f...Pastor Brown,<br /><br />I find your approach puzzling. I fully understand the desire to point to Christ, to look to Christ, to decrease that He may increase, etc.<br /><br />But there is an "I". As we mature, we will obviously become less infatuated with this ourselves, with our "ego" (I remember Peiper and the "Ego" theology). <br /><br />That said, there is an "I". We exist. And Luther said this personal existence was analogous to the two natures in Christ.<br /><br />Let's look at all of Gal. 2:20:<br /><br />"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me...."<br /><br />The I that has been crucified is that old Adam. He has been executed. When Jesus talks about how we must hate ourselves, I think he has just this execution in mind. This old man no longer lives, but Christ now lives in us! <br /><br />"...And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."<br /><br />Now who is this I? It is the new man! Christ? No, Paul means the individual Christian! It's pretty clear. <br /><br />And even so, as cherished as this makes me feel, I agree its not something we want to really talk about! Those hymns sung from an individual Christian's perspective do tend to grate on me. Even Luther's morning and evening prayers bother me sometimes. The Lord's prayer is plural... we are the cherished bride of Christ corporately, not individually....<br /><br />That said, many have pointed out that the individual holds such a cherished place in the Western world precisely because of teachings like this! It is something rejoice in, I suggest.<br /><br />Does this help?<br /><br />+Nathan Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235437889789484774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-41124114759670108152013-04-25T10:55:29.613-04:002013-04-25T10:55:29.613-04:00Consider the Small Catechism:
It signifies that ...Consider the Small Catechism: <br /><br />It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.<br /><br />The constant is Old Adam and the New -- this is Romans 5. This is "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." This is "I must decrease that He may increase." This is "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This is Christ Jesus saying that He is the Life - that is, He is my life.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-31752516125060124932013-04-25T10:46:21.945-04:002013-04-25T10:46:21.945-04:00Eric,
In the phrase "the new man cooperates ...Eric,<br /><br />In the phrase "the new man cooperates with the Holy Spirit (albeit in weakness) in new obedience" I was simply reflecting the language of the Confessions that the individual Christian who is both new man and old man is not free from old man who hinders the new man.<br /><br />I hope that clarifies the point.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Mark SurburgSurburg's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07471674105191295804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-65952396963120755592013-04-25T10:14:02.833-04:002013-04-25T10:14:02.833-04:00Hello all,
Just so everyone knows, I don't ha...Hello all,<br /><br />Just so everyone knows, I don't have ill will towards anybody here, and wish we could do this over a beer instead. <br /><br />Pastor Cwirla - your preaching has particularly helped me over the years. Pastor Messer - I appreciate your vigorous but polite contributions. Pastor Brown - I love that you keep talking about the issue.<br /><br />But really Pastor Brown - where do you get this idea that Jesus is the new man? I understand that it makes sense to call him this along with many other beautiful titles, but that is not what Scripture means when it speaks of the new man.<br /><br />Did you see this post I did?:<br /><br />http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/who-is-the-new-man/<br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />+Nathan Nathan Rinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13994922104672096902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-48927417934963014532013-04-25T10:01:38.154-04:002013-04-25T10:01:38.154-04:00Now, I guess I have a question. Do you really thi...Now, I guess I have a question. Do you really think the New Man is weak?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-34353969125362854192013-04-25T10:00:14.557-04:002013-04-25T10:00:14.557-04:00Really? You thought I denied this, and that is wh...Really? You thought I denied this, and that is why you wrote pages upon pages of blog posts?<br /><br />Isn't that kind of silly?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-59924277484422716952013-04-25T09:56:42.894-04:002013-04-25T09:56:42.894-04:00Pastor Brown,
I am glad to hear this. Perhaps we...Pastor Brown,<br /><br />I am glad to hear this. Perhaps we could have saved ourselves a great deal of work if you had simply affirmed this when asked about it in the beginning. On the other hand, I have appreciated the opportunity to work more closely with the material and there should be no misunderstanding about it in the future.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Mark SurburgSurburg's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07471674105191295804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2978485750390455025.post-40264431943620818802013-04-25T09:29:31.196-04:002013-04-25T09:29:31.196-04:00Is it too much to ask for some specificity? For in...Is it too much to ask for some specificity? For instance, who are these Lutherans who are allegedly disagreeing with the Formula & with Chemnitz? Where may their writings & statements on this be found? <br /><br />Because I'm not seeing it. Maybe I've just been reading or not reading the right blogs.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16501327753737422337noreply@blogger.com